Lucy ([info]cereta) wrote,

Fandom and Male Privilege

A while back, in a thread on [info]fanficrants, I meantioned a rant I had brewing. Well, here it is.

(Crossposted to The Fanfic Symposium, of course.)


I'm going to start off this essay with the kind of meta-statement I usually avoid like the plague, but I think in this case it's necessary. Here goes.

I know not all men are like this. I know not all men in fandom are like this. I know there are exceptions to everything I am talking about here. Having said that, I am going to try to avoid tripping all over myself to hedge everything I discuss. I am talking about larger patterns, and I think it's possible to do so without hedging every word.

There. Meta-statement done.

A number of years ago, in my early BBS days, I got into an argument with a (much older) man about whether the U.S. medical establishment was gender-biased. His argument was that not only was U.S. medicine not gender-biased in favor of men, it was gender-biased in favor of women. His support for this was that as many men get prostate cancer as women get breast cancer, and yet breast cancer receives much more funding and research than prostate cancer.

Without being able to verify either of these facts easily (this was before such information was available with a couple of mouse clicks), I responded thusly: the reason breast cancer has the research and funding it has is because women (and a few men, most of whom had lost women to breast cancer) had gotten off their asses and gotten it. They had raised money and lobbied and dragged what was once a vaguely shameful disease into the public eye.

I don't actually remember how the debate ended (knowing this guy, I suspect he blew me off), but the gist of it was this: the idea that men as a group might actually have to do something to get their interests represented was totally and completely foreign to him. The "fact" that they weren't represented already was just proof of bias and oppression.

Flash forward a few years to my active gaming days, when the majority of my social life was either gaming or hanging out with my gaming-geek friends. As should be no surprise, the majority of those friends were men. In a group of, oh, about 30 or so people in various concentric circles, there were about four women who regularly showed up at parties and other functions.

After a while, we began organizing "chick nights," gatherings of just the four of us and maybe some other women we knew from outside the group. For reasons that were often kind of bizarre, some of the men in the group took exception to this. They never organized nights at which we were excluded. When we pointed out that by the law of averages, a good half of the various social outings ended up being guy-only, they replied that it was not the same thing.

"Look," I finally said to one of them, "when we get together Saturday night, we're going to paint our nails and put goop on our faces and play with each others' hair and watch movies with really hot guys and talk about how hot the guys are and probably talk about sex and periods and all that fun stuff. Do you really have any interest in that?"

"No," he replied, "but we could do other stuff instead."

At which point I walked away, because otherwise things would have ended either with a rant on how it was not only more socially accepted but socially expected for women to be interested in stereotypically guy things than for guys to get into stereotypically female things (which I didn't want to do, because really, we all did love gaming and horror movies and science fiction all that fun stuff), or else with me banging my head on the table.

We live in a culture of male privilege.

I mean, you all do know that, right? I'm not breaking anything to you? Cool.

Male privilege may be more obvious in other cultures, but in so-called Western culture it's still ubiquitous. In fact, it's so ubiquitous that it's invisible. It is so pervasive as to be normalized, and so normalized as to be visible only in its absence. The vast, vast, vast majority of institutions, spaces, and subcultures privilege male interests, but because male is the default in this culture, such interests are very often considered ungendered. As a result, we only really notice when something privileges female interests.

This results in, well, lots of things, but two that I want to talk about here. The first is that true gender equality is actually perceived as inequality. A group that is made up of 50% women is perceived as being mostly women. A situation that is perfectly equal between men and women is perceived as being biased in favor of women.

And if you don't believe me, you've never been a married woman who kept her family name. I have had students hold that up as proof of my "sexism." My own brother told me that he could never marry a woman who kept her name because "everyone would know who ruled that relationship." Perfect equality - my husband keeps his name and I keep mine – is held as a statement of superiority on my part.

Or back to the first point there. Think for a minute about any show that isn't a sitcom (for some reason, they're the exception) or a Lifetime series. I'll bet you anything the opening credits have more male names than female. And if there are more female names, odds are the series is about women, as opposed to being about lawyers or doctors or people living in another galaxy. I mean, I love Stargate: Atlantis, but, well, let's consider, shall we? For that matter, I remember noticing and being pleased by how many women there seemed to be on the Daedelus. How many is how many? Two. And if it's realistic that there would be fewer women on an Air Force ship, the more telling point is that the presence of two visible female background characters caused me to take notice.

The second result of the invisibility of male privilege is that a lack of male privilege is taken as active oppression, as male-bashing or bias towards women. It is not enough that the mere presence of something which actively aims at women and women's interests is taken as oppressing men; simply not catering to men's interests is perceived as oppression. And I mean, by the way, honestly perceived that way.

Let's talk about Spike TV for a moment. You know, television for men? Leaving aside for the moment that their idea of what "television for men" is is kind of interesting, there was no question that the network label was in part a response to Lifetime. Again leaving aside what Lifetime thinks "television for women" is or should be (we live to rant another day), it sounds fair enough, right? One network that's "television for women" and on that's "television for men."

Except is there anyone out there who doesn't know that pretty much every other network on television is courting the male viewer? The W-fricking-B is trying to attract more male viewers. I'm not saying they're actively excluding female viewers, unless they're the sort of network that cancels their second-highest rated show because the only people watching it are women, and no, I am never letting that one go, but is it any secret that male viewers are the Holy Grail of television?

This is, in essence, the television corollary of the men who point to Women's Studies programs/classes and ask where the Men's Studies are, at which point I flail in the direction of the history, literature, art, and social studies classes. I mean, is there anyone who actually thinks men are underrepresented there? But again, something which is not predominantly about men is perceived as oppression even though it is actually an attempt to rectify the gender imbalance in the mainstream.

So, what does this have to do with fandom?

Media fandom as most of us know it is often largely a female space. By that I mean, many of the circles we run in are made up mostly of women. Women write stories for other women, make vids for other women, talk with other women, go to cons with other women, and while few of us actively want to exclude men, we're not really invested in drawing them in, either. Fandom is one of the few places where you'll actually hear, "Wait, so-and-so's a guy?" And you know, we're kind of used to that.

Except lately, these fairly small spaces have been expanding, and intersecting with spaces where there are more men. And often, everything is fine and dandy. It's just that sometimes, it's not.

Let's take this post for example. Allowing for the moment that the guy was being obnoxious as all shit in his phrasing, there was still a rather disturbing amount of agreement to what was, in essence, a classic example of male privilege.

It is not enough, you see, not to exclude men. We have to actively get them involved. I'm not sure what's more insidious, there: the notion that we must find it not only desirable that men get involved in fandom but also some kind of imperative, or the notion that it is our, women's, responsibility to get them involved in fandom. That we are the ones who must act, in other words. That even though we carved these spaces out for ourselves (didn't nobody create those lists and cons and archives and communities for us, darlin'), we must take the further step to get men involved in them. And if you are going to argue that these couple of guys are in no way representative of male privilege at work in fandom, you might want to talk to the vidders who've been told that vidding can't be an "art" because no men are involved. Instead, it can only be a "hobby."

And further, as implied in this response, we must do so by actively suppressing our own interests. It is not enough to make things more appealing to men; we must stop the things that appeal to us. And that, really, is where things can get ugly. Because men can stand longingly at the window waiting for us to coax them in all they want, and ultimately, it doesn't affect us. What does affect us is the attempt to reshape the spaces we have set up for ourselves to better reflect their interests.

So let's talk [info]scans_daily, shall we? This was a community set up to be friendly to, if not exclusively about, slash, which is, let's face it, mostly a female activity. And again, there was in essence a situation of perfect equality. No one was stopping men from posting things that interested them. And indeed, they did so (how many scans of Power Girl have been posted?). Perfect equality: everyone gets to post what interests them.

Except that wasn't enough. Instead, some men (some, not all, and I do feel the need to say that here) felt it necessary to actively try to stop the posts that were of interest to women, the slash and "ooh, pretty man" posts. Instead, we get "I don't understand this kind of fandom." We get long essays on why we should not post slashy commentary on a particular set of scans. And no matter how many times we point out that, to paraphrase [info]liviapenn, the male fans have the whole rest of comics fandom on the internet, this one space that does not actively cater to their interests by preventing us from asserting ours has become the object of contention.

And you know, tempers have frayed as a result. It's all well and good to try to be understanding, to try to remember that larger comics fandom is a male space, and thus that guys see us as the intruder, etc, etc. But in a culture of male privilege, when even the spaces we create for ourselves become sites of struggle, it can get really, really frustrating.

And again, I feel the need to reiterate: I've met some great guys in fandom, guys who've joined fannish spaces and embraced fannish ways and just been, well, great. And I always think of them with a bit of a squirm when I say that I'm mostly writing for women like myself. I'm happy when men like my stories or other work because I'm happy when anyone likes my work, but I'm not actively seeking them as an audience.

But you know, that should not be a problem. It should not be seen as "anti-male" to admit that I'm mostly writing for other women. And we shouldn't have to keep fighting for the spaces that, I have to say yet again, we made for ourselves. And we really, really shouldn't feel any need to apologize for having made those spaces for our interests, and made them to reflect our interests. Seriously, can we stop that? This is not oppression. It is not male-bashing. It is simply a lack of male privilege, and that? Is not a bad thing.


ETA: So, um, safe to say it's not just me, huh?

I will get to all comments, eventually. Might take a couple of days, but I will!

ETA the second Um, yeah, might have to go back on that "get to all comments" thing, because...*boggle.* Please do know that I am reading all the responses, but at this point, I can only respond as the spirit and my vaguely fried brain move me. Please know that if I don't respond, it's not a comment on your, um, comment.

Have I mentioned fandom rocks?
Tags: fandom meta, feminism

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[info]laurashapiro

November 7 2005, 22:57:30 UTC 6 years ago

I cheer, I applaud, I stamp my feet.

Can I buy you a drink at Escapade?

[info]cereta

November 7 2005, 22:59:19 UTC 6 years ago

Alas, I'm not going, but I'll take a raincheck for Vividcon ;). Glad you liked it! It's been brewing for a while.

[info]some_stars

November 7 2005, 23:00:54 UTC 6 years ago

You have made me so frantically incoherent with agreement that all I can do is point and nod vigorously. YES. THAT.

[info]cereta

November 7 2005, 23:03:56 UTC 6 years ago

I'll take incoherent with agreement. Seriously, I have been writing this in my head for, like, ever.

[info]naomichana

November 7 2005, 23:08:10 UTC 6 years ago

I was just blogging about an altogether different problem of gendered representation -- who gets up at the front of a Jewish prayer service -- and it's very helpful to hear you assert what I have often thought, that a service composed of 50% women would seem vastly "unequal" to most of the participants and witnesses.

[info]cereta

November 7 2005, 23:15:06 UTC 6 years ago

Somewhere, I know, there are studies backing that up, but at the very least, it's been my experience, yeah.

[info]yonmei

6 years ago

[info]pdcawley

6 years ago

[info]wychwood

6 years ago

[info]cereta

6 years ago

[info]auroramama

6 years ago

[info]yonmei

November 7 2005, 23:08:25 UTC 6 years ago

*making you cake*

If I was going to Escapade, I'd buy you a drink.

Next time you go to a con in the UK, I'm buying you a drink.

[info]cereta

November 7 2005, 23:15:38 UTC 6 years ago

Thank you!

[info]askmehow

November 7 2005, 23:11:35 UTC 6 years ago

Truesay, to every point. Bravo!

[info]cereta

November 7 2005, 23:17:50 UTC 6 years ago

Thank you! It's been percolating in the back of my mind for a while.

[info]sanj

November 7 2005, 23:17:33 UTC 6 years ago

I love you. And your very, very shiny brain. And this essay.

[info]cereta

November 7 2005, 23:18:05 UTC 6 years ago

Love ya right back!

[info]marag

November 7 2005, 23:23:04 UTC 6 years ago

You know what's funny? I was just preparing to post a link to The Male Privilege Checklist ::grin::. I saw a link to it on a post at Unscrewing the Inscrutable and I thought folks might be interested.

Oh, and this post rocks, BTW!

[info]cereta

November 7 2005, 23:31:10 UTC 6 years ago

Oh, I love the invisible knapsack essay, and that's a great link! Thank you!

[info]marag

6 years ago

[info]elynross

6 years ago

[info]lumenara

6 years ago

[info]l33tminion

6 years ago

[info]marag

6 years ago

[info]__marcelo

November 7 2005, 23:25:10 UTC 6 years ago

cheers from the sidelines

*sighs* If this post had a shape, it'd be that of the Giant Bat of Clue. *imagines a hundred thousand Bats of Clue descending from the sky as a swarm of OMACS*

[info]cereta

November 7 2005, 23:31:56 UTC 6 years ago

Re: cheers from the sidelines

Bat of Clue! I love it!

[info]maelithil

November 7 2005, 23:26:02 UTC 6 years ago

Thank you. THANK YOU.

I was about to wave the last scans_daily crap at you and whine, but you did this so much better.

I have grown to expect misogyny and general nonesense in, say, the DC forums, but it hurts so much more when it appears, and is encouraged, in forums I enjoyed.

And the Bruce and Dick as "father and son" pissed me off to no end. No, you don't get to tell me what to think and stating it as a bloody header is only going to annoy me.

[info]cereta

November 7 2005, 23:32:45 UTC 6 years ago

You're welcome, and thank you for helping me talk this out.

Really, it was this or throw up my hands in despair ;).

[info]amberlynne

November 7 2005, 23:27:14 UTC 6 years ago

Word. And stuff. Also, love. *claps*

I was just thinking today about that sort of thing after a certain post to [info]scans_daily. You, of course, are much more eloquent about it than I would have been, however. :)

[info]cereta

November 7 2005, 23:32:59 UTC 6 years ago

Thank you! I try ;).

[info]harriet_spy

November 7 2005, 23:29:05 UTC 6 years ago

And, interestingly, as male participation has increased, s_d has become much less slashy in orientation, and we get some downright, er, classic-fanboyish-material, which would never be posted by anyone who paid attention to the prior tenor of the community. Like many spaces, the greater male participation becomes, the more the purpose of the space gets made over into "default"/male purposes.

[info]cereta

November 7 2005, 23:33:28 UTC 6 years ago

Yes, yes, yes. And it kills me to see that happening.

[info]sanj

6 years ago

[info]maelithil

6 years ago

[info]dinpik

6 years ago

[info]maelithil

6 years ago

[info]mikkeneko

6 years ago

[info]maelithil

6 years ago

[info]cereta

6 years ago

[info]teenygozer

6 years ago

[info]pearl_o

November 7 2005, 23:33:44 UTC 6 years ago

This is a beautiful essay in every way.

[info]cereta

November 7 2005, 23:35:17 UTC 6 years ago

Thank you!

[info]aerye

November 7 2005, 23:52:52 UTC 6 years ago

I will simply add my applause to the general clamor. This is well done, well argued, and it articulates something that we struggle way too much to try to clarify. Yay, you.

[info]cereta

November 8 2005, 01:16:28 UTC 6 years ago

Thank you! I've been trying to figure out how to phrase this for weeks. I'm glad it made sense.

[info]gilda_elise

November 7 2005, 23:56:22 UTC 6 years ago

I'm really not that active in comic fandoms; my interest is really just an off-shoot of slash (Bruce/Dick, yes, I'm one of those perverts.) What I found interesting is that the problems you associate with male privilege I run into in fandoms where there are few men participating. There, the problem is with some gen fans.

I'm not saying these guys you've mentioned don't have a problem; they do. It does seem that most guys go run and hide when confronted with anything smacking of homosexuality. But lots of women seem to have the same problem, except they're a lot sneakier about it. The guys on your group come right out and say it, make no bones about trying to stop it. A slash fan on a group that caters to both slash and gen gets, "I don't understand slash even though some of my best friends are slashers (they always insist on that) and even though I've been reading fanfic for (5-10-15) years I've never run across a good explanation for it. Could you (the slash members of the group) explain it to me?" From there it follows the same descent into frayed tempers and bad feelings as on your community as slashers once more get sucked into trying to justify their preference.

[info]cereta

November 8 2005, 01:19:12 UTC 6 years ago

I would absolutely agree that there are issues of privilege and entitlment that run in maaaaany other circles of fandom. I well remember the "why isn't anyone talking about gen stuff" days on FCA-L, when all I could do was bang my head and suggest they start threads.

I've just seen this particular gendered pattern popping up a lot lately, and so, I essay ;).

Anonymous

6 years ago

[info]beledibabe

November 7 2005, 23:58:26 UTC 6 years ago

A-frellin'-men!!!

It's so easy to come over to another corner of the sandbox and want to reshape it more to your liking; men have been doing that for eons. It's bad enough that subjects generally of interest to women are marginalized, but it really irks me when men insist on "fixing" something that isn't broken.

Grrrr...

[info]cereta

November 8 2005, 01:20:34 UTC 6 years ago

Grrr indeed! What really kills me is when women the apologize for making men feel unwelcome. That was just...GAH.

[info]lomedet

November 7 2005, 23:59:11 UTC 6 years ago

Wow.

Your brain, she is shiny and wonderful.

[info]cereta

November 8 2005, 01:20:46 UTC 6 years ago

Aw, thanks!

[info]blue_cat

6 years ago

[info]ravenslost

6 years ago

[info]ide_cyan

November 8 2005, 00:07:52 UTC 6 years ago

Here via [info]yonmei. Great post!

[info]cereta

November 8 2005, 01:22:12 UTC 6 years ago

Thank you!

[info]ide_cyan

6 years ago

[info]goat003

November 8 2005, 00:11:57 UTC 6 years ago

Most of these things, I've never even thought of before. I guess that proves something right there.

Thank you for this.

[info]cereta

November 8 2005, 01:21:11 UTC 6 years ago

No, thank you! That's a great response to get!

[info]ellen_fremedon

November 8 2005, 00:28:11 UTC 6 years ago

*nods like bobblehead*

Shiny essay. Shiny brain.

[info]cereta

November 8 2005, 01:22:47 UTC 6 years ago

Oooh, shiny! Thanks ;).

[info]ratcreature

November 8 2005, 00:33:49 UTC 6 years ago

Word.

I think it's kind of sad how [info] changed its tone, and I admit that personally I just retreated from the space rather that to get involved in these kerfuffles, because well, fandom is supposed to be fun after all, and I think for a high profile space in comic fandom it probably takes work to make sure it remains a women's space. :/

[info]cereta

November 8 2005, 01:24:02 UTC 6 years ago

Yeah, I retreated myself, and I go back and forth between wishing I hadn't and just...life is too short. I've been really lucky that the attempts at male privilege in places like the Symposium and FCA-L have mostly been laughed down.

[info]lydiabell

November 8 2005, 00:34:27 UTC 6 years ago

I'm not saying they're actively excluding female viewers, unless they're the sort of network that cancels their second-highest rated show because the only people watching it are women, and no, I am never letting that one go, but is it any secret that male viewers are the Holy Grail of television?

You shouldn't let it go! And you know, the sad thing is, I'm not even sure which show you're referring to, because I can think of more than one possibility (see icon for one).

I had always been kind of baffled by this notion that it's somehow better to jettison a show that's unexpectedly drawing the "wrong" (read: female) demographic than to just rethink your advertising strategy. After all, it's not as though there aren't plenty of advertisers who will pay good money to hawk their wares to women with disposable incomes! But I think it must be related to these other studies showing that anything with significant female participation becomes perceived as female-dominated. A channel with even one or two shows that appeal mainly to women could become tainted with the girl-cooties and lose its manly image. (Sci-Fi Channel, anyone? I don't know if the Sci-Fi Channel even *has* a manly image, but I bet they want one.)

I need a fangirl and/or feminist icon...

[info]cereta

November 8 2005, 01:24:25 UTC 6 years ago

Heh. It was The Sentinel, and I am never, ever, ever letting it go. Ever.

[info]cereta

4 years ago

[info]copracat

6 years ago

[info]mikkeneko

6 years ago

[info]copracat

6 years ago

[info]minim_calibre

November 8 2005, 01:07:15 UTC 6 years ago

This should be required reading for everyone. Yes, just... yes.

[info]cereta

November 8 2005, 01:28:11 UTC 6 years ago

Thank you! I'm glad it seems to have come across as I intended ;).

[info]penknife

November 8 2005, 01:08:20 UTC 6 years ago

Oh, well said. I will join the line of people waiting to buy you a drink, should we ever be in the same place.

[info]cereta

November 8 2005, 01:28:27 UTC 6 years ago

Heee. Tequila is always a favorite.

[info]moonlit_page

November 8 2005, 01:10:12 UTC 6 years ago

I think you've expressed yourself eloquently. I share your frustration, as I work in the manga novel business. I've actually heard UNBELIEVABLE things about how a female protagonist will never sell, yaoi subtext is immoral whereas a hot-female-raping-underage-boy-storyline is empowering, and while girls will read novels, they won't want to look at pretty pictures as much as boys want to. INFURIATING. One thing I have to say about fandom -- carving out niches for ourselves, where we can be ourselves without apology, is awesome. But making any place exclusively for women is just as wrong as making a place exclusively for men/ whites/ blacks/ catholics/ pagans/ wtfever. You're right -- you wanna pull up a chair? ALL are welcome. No need to recruit and convert outside the in-group. No need to change our colors for anyone else. Almost all of canon caters to males. Fanon caters to females in order to fill the gap. That's just the way it is. When more canon stories court females, the males can actively carve out their niches on the web. In the meantime, everyone should just live and let write the pr0n, yo. ^_^ Love, Roo

[info]cereta

November 8 2005, 01:28:59 UTC 6 years ago

Oh, yes. What you said, really. That's exactly it.

Anonymous

6 years ago

[info]marag

November 8 2005, 01:10:57 UTC 6 years ago

Thank you :) I got it from [info]_xehra and I love it!

[info]marag

November 8 2005, 01:13:18 UTC 6 years ago

Whoops, I meant to post this in response to [info]l33tminion but I was distracted by my husband coming into the office with a bowl of black forest pudding he'd made.

And somehow, the fact that my comment was interrupted by a man coming out of the kitchen with food for me is very ironic.

[info]cereta

6 years ago

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